1 00:00:22,090 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,490 --> 00:00:25,189 yes one Labradoodle to rule them all but 3 00:00:31,970 --> 00:00:28,500 now it's Richard Saunders what one 4 00:00:34,490 --> 00:00:31,980 Labradoodle it must be what other showed 5 00:00:36,410 --> 00:00:34,500 you hear the word Labradoodle on the 6 00:00:39,229 --> 00:00:36,420 Labradoodle show that's true it's very 7 00:00:42,530 --> 00:00:39,239 popular show it is hello and welcome to 8 00:00:44,330 --> 00:00:42,540 the skeptic zone episode number 394 and 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:44,340 Richard Saunders here with Maynard at 10 00:00:47,330 --> 00:00:46,050 skeptics in the pub it's a pretty big 11 00:00:48,619 --> 00:00:47,340 night tonight I can see a lot of people 12 00:00:49,850 --> 00:00:48,629 are lining up for an argument there's a 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:49,860 few people that have bought jugs would 14 00:00:55,090 --> 00:00:52,050 be just to pour over other people pour 15 00:00:57,110 --> 00:00:55,100 over you they're gone well I'm going 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:00:57,120 that's how you get your drinks these 17 00:01:00,650 --> 00:00:59,250 days and not people their throat through 18 00:01:02,959 --> 00:01:00,660 that of free drinks I've had thrown at 19 00:01:08,469 --> 00:01:02,969 me in my lifetime what's coming up on 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:08,479 this week's show I hear you ask yes 21 00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:10,650 what's coming up on the show this week 22 00:01:13,670 --> 00:01:12,030 Richard I'm glad you are we're going to 23 00:01:16,039 --> 00:01:13,680 be talking to dr. Chris Fleming all 24 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:16,049 about conspiracy theories also we're 25 00:01:20,330 --> 00:01:17,970 going to visit choice magazine here in 26 00:01:23,210 --> 00:01:20,340 Sydney and talk to Tom Godfrey their 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:23,220 media representative about consumer 28 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:25,530 affairs and medicine and all sorts of 29 00:01:28,609 --> 00:01:27,060 things like that if I have a date that 30 00:01:31,370 --> 00:01:28,619 doesn't go well can I complain to 31 00:01:32,630 --> 00:01:31,380 consumers control about that write it 32 00:01:34,399 --> 00:01:32,640 write an article for choice magazine 33 00:01:35,749 --> 00:01:34,409 choice choice magazine and the 34 00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:35,759 Australian skeptics are sort of very 35 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:38,100 kindred spirits you know we both look at 36 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:40,530 shonky and dodgy products you and I went 37 00:01:44,539 --> 00:01:42,810 and reported Angela bash of course we 38 00:01:46,999 --> 00:01:44,549 were the shonky Awards last year that's 39 00:01:50,899 --> 00:01:47,009 true and we didn't get one this year not 40 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:50,909 yet we might the shonky podcast and also 41 00:01:54,889 --> 00:01:52,530 we're going to be continuing the 42 00:01:56,149 --> 00:01:54,899 coverage of this chiropractor who 43 00:01:58,429 --> 00:01:56,159 cracked the back of the four day old 44 00:02:00,020 --> 00:01:58,439 baby he was recently on the TV in the 45 00:02:02,330 --> 00:02:00,030 last couple of days here in Australia 46 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:02,340 and he really made a meal of it he 47 00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:03,970 didn't do very well at all so 48 00:02:07,530 --> 00:02:05,980 covering that yeah I could imagine that 49 00:02:08,940 --> 00:02:07,540 if you got to explain yourself you've 50 00:02:10,499 --> 00:02:08,950 got to be really good if that's what 51 00:02:13,140 --> 00:02:10,509 you're going to be doing you have to be 52 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:13,150 on your game and he wasn't he was not on 53 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:15,610 his game all that coming up and for 54 00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:17,710 those people who want to know Henriette 55 00:02:21,150 --> 00:02:19,630 her and mortar doing very well they are 56 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:21,160 too i've been taking some photos of hen 57 00:02:25,230 --> 00:02:22,690 hen seems to be the one that likes the 58 00:02:27,570 --> 00:02:25,240 camera yes she's a ham him the hand the 59 00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:27,580 ham I think yeah that's right I bought 60 00:02:30,810 --> 00:02:29,260 them a cardboard box and it's a great 61 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:30,820 that you can spend all this money on 62 00:02:34,620 --> 00:02:33,310 kitten toys and kitten homes and stuff 63 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:34,630 and all you really need to do is give 64 00:02:37,980 --> 00:02:36,340 them a shoe box with a hole in it yeah 65 00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:37,990 shoe box are a big box with a couple of 66 00:02:41,699 --> 00:02:39,790 holes in it and kittens are as happy as 67 00:02:43,949 --> 00:02:41,709 well kittens can be I think that's right 68 00:02:45,449 --> 00:02:43,959 all that coming up on the skipping stone 69 00:02:47,340 --> 00:02:45,459 look me night I think we'd better run 70 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:47,350 off to the bar there and order some more 71 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:49,270 drinks and some schnitzel how about some 72 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:51,130 schnitzel no I'm going to order myself a 73 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:53,050 parfait door more i'm getting a vogue 74 00:02:57,300 --> 00:02:55,570 from the top shelf good heaven it's 75 00:02:59,760 --> 00:02:57,310 purple and smells like perfume it's 76 00:03:01,140 --> 00:02:59,770 lovely yes your skeptics are all those 77 00:03:03,350 --> 00:03:01,150 people who contribute to the skeptic 78 00:03:06,990 --> 00:03:03,360 zone this is where for the money cutters 79 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:07,000 buy us drinks and who knows what else 80 00:03:35,850 --> 00:03:09,489 anyway why we do that we hope you enjoy 81 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:37,870 well we're in the belly of the beast 82 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:39,650 here if you've been out there selling 83 00:03:43,390 --> 00:03:41,090 stuff at the two-dollar markets that are 84 00:03:45,130 --> 00:03:43,400 really worth to us 50 you are in so much 85 00:03:46,870 --> 00:03:45,140 trouble let me tell you right now here 86 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:46,880 in a lot of Ken trouble because we are 87 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:48,230 here at choice magazine will you'll be 88 00:03:51,730 --> 00:03:50,690 named shamed and a photo of your bum put 89 00:03:53,290 --> 00:03:51,740 at the front of the building for 90 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:53,300 everybody at the football oval across 91 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:54,590 the road to look at that's what's going 92 00:03:59,170 --> 00:03:56,810 to happen to you we have here Tim 93 00:04:01,360 --> 00:03:59,180 mendham and Richard Saunders and the guy 94 00:04:03,790 --> 00:04:01,370 in the hot seat Tom Godfrey and what's 95 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:03,800 your job little boy I am a head of media 96 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:07,640 for my sins no choice and the Consumer 97 00:04:10,150 --> 00:04:08,690 Affairs Australian Consumer Association 98 00:04:11,410 --> 00:04:10,160 has been around for a long time he's to 99 00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:11,420 work opposite it actually when it was in 100 00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:13,040 Chippendale a little warehouse there 101 00:04:16,750 --> 00:04:15,350 actually nice old place but it was 102 00:04:18,789 --> 00:04:16,760 always behave the image of beings of 103 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:18,799 comparing products appliances and 104 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:20,870 services working out what's the best 105 00:04:24,850 --> 00:04:22,610 value for money etc and that's probably 106 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:24,860 still the main image that choice has in 107 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:27,470 the magazine etc fridges and appliances 108 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:30,080 and you name it but also you do deal 109 00:04:34,420 --> 00:04:32,360 with shonky technology and shonky 110 00:04:36,340 --> 00:04:34,430 products and that's obviously what is 111 00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:36,350 the subject of your shonky awards how 112 00:04:40,690 --> 00:04:37,820 much do you think that represents of 113 00:04:42,790 --> 00:04:40,700 what choice does is look it's the 114 00:04:45,010 --> 00:04:42,800 essence of what we do because whether 115 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:45,020 we're looking at a fridge or the latest 116 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:47,510 bit of tech or a claim on a some 117 00:04:51,940 --> 00:04:49,910 packaging what it's about is trying to 118 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:51,950 get to the heart of the issue because 119 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:53,410 what we tend to find is that 120 00:04:57,790 --> 00:04:55,940 manufacturers and big brands push the 121 00:05:00,040 --> 00:04:57,800 envelope in a bid to get you to pay a 122 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:00,050 price premium and often when we get to 123 00:05:04,659 --> 00:05:02,150 the heart of it that price premium 124 00:05:06,310 --> 00:05:04,669 shouldn't really be there and time and 125 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:06,320 time again it is often the biggest 126 00:05:10,870 --> 00:05:08,650 companies in the market big global 127 00:05:13,060 --> 00:05:10,880 multi-billion dollar brands that are 128 00:05:15,219 --> 00:05:13,070 trying to deceive and dupe consumers 129 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:15,229 just on a specific one here in the 130 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:16,490 chakras last year there was an issue 131 00:05:20,409 --> 00:05:18,440 with was at Samsung washing machines had 132 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:20,419 a potential fire issue or what happened 133 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:22,850 with that this is an absolute disgrace 134 00:05:30,490 --> 00:05:28,370 so Samsung a big global brand operating 135 00:05:31,260 --> 00:05:30,500 in many different markets but they put a 136 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:31,270 washing machine 137 00:05:35,070 --> 00:05:33,190 the market a hundred and forty-four 138 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:35,080 thousand five hundred of these washing 139 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:37,510 machines were faulty so what would you 140 00:05:41,340 --> 00:05:39,670 do if you put a faulty washing machine 141 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:41,350 on the market what would you do 142 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:43,990 obviously you'd get it off because these 143 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:46,510 have a really nasty habit of catching 144 00:05:52,410 --> 00:05:49,750 fire fact there's been more than 250 145 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:52,420 incidents or fires in Australia but 146 00:05:57,450 --> 00:05:54,610 Samsung refuse to let people know we've 147 00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:57,460 asked them repeatedly go on TV spend as 148 00:06:01,080 --> 00:05:58,810 much money as you do promoting new 149 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:01,090 products to get this old dodgy product 150 00:06:04,590 --> 00:06:03,250 off the market but they refuse and the 151 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:04,600 reason they're refuses because they're 152 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:06,550 trying to protect their brand which is 153 00:06:10,170 --> 00:06:08,530 cold comfort for all those consumers 154 00:06:11,970 --> 00:06:10,180 across the country who have lost their 155 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:11,980 homes and is still now dealing with 156 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:14,800 Samsung trying to get compensation my 157 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:17,290 firm advice to anyone with a Samsung top 158 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:19,030 loader washing machine caught up in this 159 00:06:23,970 --> 00:06:21,610 recall is just get it out of your home 160 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:23,980 and get your money back and go and buy 161 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:26,050 another brand you have a rightness 162 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:27,310 tralee under Australian Consumer Law 163 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:29,530 that came in in 2011 to repair 164 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:31,450 replacement or refund if there's a major 165 00:06:36,410 --> 00:06:34,240 failure now what we see all too often is 166 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:36,420 that these big brands bully consumers 167 00:06:40,620 --> 00:06:39,130 into signing non-disclosure agreements 168 00:06:42,690 --> 00:06:40,630 and gag orders before they're giving 169 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:42,700 them those basic rights it's a disgrace 170 00:06:48,060 --> 00:06:45,730 and look I think it always if you get 171 00:06:50,850 --> 00:06:48,070 into a problem if a product fails don't 172 00:06:52,470 --> 00:06:50,860 stay quiet definitely come to choice go 173 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:52,480 to the regulator the other thing to 174 00:06:55,770 --> 00:06:53,770 remember is these companies have a 175 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:55,780 mandatory reporting provision if you've 176 00:06:59,850 --> 00:06:57,610 been to see a doctor if that product has 177 00:07:01,380 --> 00:06:59,860 caused harm then these companies need to 178 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:01,390 report to the a Triple C there's been a 179 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:03,430 problem but they are so keen on 180 00:07:06,660 --> 00:07:04,930 protecting their brands and I think 181 00:07:09,030 --> 00:07:06,670 they're all very nervous of social media 182 00:07:11,190 --> 00:07:09,040 and any negative coverage they might get 183 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:11,200 online well let's get onto a subject 184 00:07:14,930 --> 00:07:13,060 that came to our notice recently but 185 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:14,940 it's an ongoing story and this is the 186 00:07:21,060 --> 00:07:17,920 recent decision to find the people 187 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:21,070 behind the Nura Fionn pain relief pills 188 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:24,670 a 1.7 million dollar fine which to them 189 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:26,710 probably isn't that much but the point 190 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:29,050 is that the neuro Fionn were marketing 191 00:07:33,150 --> 00:07:31,360 the same pill to do different things 192 00:07:36,210 --> 00:07:33,160 target pain in different areas of the 193 00:07:38,730 --> 00:07:36,220 body and I no choice has been on this 194 00:07:41,190 --> 00:07:38,740 case for a long time yeah targeted pain 195 00:07:42,660 --> 00:07:41,200 relief is a con plain and simple we 196 00:07:43,410 --> 00:07:42,670 first blew the whistle on this in two 197 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:43,420 thousand 198 00:07:48,870 --> 00:07:46,870 and when we gave urine a shonky we all 199 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:48,880 know that these pain relievers but I've 200 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:50,950 approp Anor paracetamol are systemic 201 00:07:55,530 --> 00:07:53,020 once you take it it goes to wherever the 202 00:07:59,100 --> 00:07:55,540 pain is in the body but these companies 203 00:08:01,290 --> 00:07:59,110 and it's purely for a profit they want 204 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:01,300 to convince you that these pills work 205 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:03,610 differently and target particular types 206 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:05,140 of pain whether it be neck and back 207 00:08:11,070 --> 00:08:08,110 period pain or otherwise so it is purely 208 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:11,080 just to play for profit it's a total con 209 00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:13,360 and what's even more concerning is that 210 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:16,000 this company was found to have been 211 00:08:20,510 --> 00:08:18,730 misleading consumers they only got a 1.7 212 00:08:23,070 --> 00:08:20,520 million dollar fine I mean it is 213 00:08:25,590 --> 00:08:23,080 completely insignificant compared to how 214 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:25,600 much money this company is making each 215 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:27,760 year from putting these dodgy claims in 216 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:29,710 the market and look it's not just about 217 00:08:33,660 --> 00:08:32,080 profit and ripping consumers off you'd 218 00:08:35,130 --> 00:08:33,670 be far better obviously just buying the 219 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:35,140 generic that didn't have the dodgy 220 00:08:38,910 --> 00:08:37,030 targeted pain relief message it's also 221 00:08:41,310 --> 00:08:38,920 dangerous because there is a real risk 222 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:41,320 that people could interpret that as I've 223 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:42,940 got two panes I've got a headache and I 224 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:44,950 go to back pain and take double the dose 225 00:08:49,650 --> 00:08:48,070 it's irresponsible and to say that it's 226 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:49,660 not just your f---ing it's panadol as 227 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:51,610 well and they should just stop it and 228 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:54,220 what we'd like to see that 1.7 million 229 00:08:58,620 --> 00:08:56,380 dollar fine that should be bulked up you 230 00:09:00,420 --> 00:08:58,630 know then that the fine needs to fit the 231 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:00,430 crime and it just doesn't at the moment 232 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:02,980 for breaches of consumer law is there 233 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:06,760 time for the head and a final back okay 234 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:07,930 then we're looking at sort of nurofen 235 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:09,760 which is a painkiller presumably it does 236 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:12,040 kill pain right it just doesn't do what 237 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:13,780 the way they say it do did the targeted 238 00:09:18,210 --> 00:09:16,150 so but what about products that don't do 239 00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:18,220 what they say they can do that that are 240 00:09:22,380 --> 00:09:20,380 cruelly shonky yeah look and there are 241 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:22,390 plenty of those out there and each year 242 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:24,700 we have our annual name and shame athan 243 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:27,510 where we put forward a lot of those 244 00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:30,010 shonky products we put a call out to the 245 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:32,320 community and you see them coming 246 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:34,240 through all the time whether it's a 247 00:09:37,950 --> 00:09:36,160 phone cover that says its water proof 248 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:37,960 that just completely is and of course 249 00:09:46,650 --> 00:09:44,340 you know but the business will 250 00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:46,660 continually try it on and I think you 251 00:09:50,370 --> 00:09:48,820 know our role here is to keep business 252 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:50,380 honest we've been doing it since 253 00:09:54,770 --> 00:09:52,720 nineteen fifty-nine and we're getting 254 00:09:56,990 --> 00:09:54,780 stronger and stronger every year 255 00:09:58,550 --> 00:09:57,000 it was a look that's one of the areas 256 00:10:00,110 --> 00:09:58,560 that of course the skeptics get into is 257 00:10:01,610 --> 00:10:00,120 not just the marketing which is 258 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:01,620 obviously what a lot of your problems 259 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:03,270 are about but also the suppose and 260 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:05,220 scientific evidence that underpin some 261 00:10:08,540 --> 00:10:06,510 of these products and that's I mean 262 00:10:09,980 --> 00:10:08,550 things like the power balance wristband 263 00:10:11,810 --> 00:10:09,990 which which it was very much involved 264 00:10:13,790 --> 00:10:11,820 with debunking is now off the market 265 00:10:15,230 --> 00:10:13,800 initial that got a shonky as well okay 266 00:10:18,650 --> 00:10:15,240 that's what sort of area due to a lot of 267 00:10:20,660 --> 00:10:18,660 that with a pseudoscience oh absolutely 268 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:20,670 i mean it's at the heart of what we do 269 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:21,870 in the product testing business 270 00:10:26,390 --> 00:10:24,630 particularly because looking at the 271 00:10:29,780 --> 00:10:26,400 claims and looking at the supposed 272 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:29,790 science behind the products if you spend 273 00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:31,590 it of time it can be pretty easy to 274 00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:36,900 disprove speaking your tips i'll leave 275 00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:39,120 you of this this is one of the magazines 276 00:10:43,370 --> 00:10:40,860 that we regularly click to get a lot of 277 00:10:45,860 --> 00:10:43,380 our tips from it's a new age magazine 278 00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:45,870 now without saying too much as well your 279 00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:47,760 attention to one of the advertising it 280 00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:50,160 for a device which you plug into your 281 00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:51,480 wall or you put on the back of your 282 00:10:58,220 --> 00:10:53,940 mobile phone and all your radiation 283 00:10:59,960 --> 00:10:58,230 problems yeah good luck with that it 284 00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:59,970 looks a lot like a bit of plastic and a 285 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:01,200 bit of plastic that goes on your phone 286 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:03,570 yeah that's right it's amazing what 287 00:11:07,010 --> 00:11:05,730 people will try isn't it other areas you 288 00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:07,020 don't touch i mean have you touched 289 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:09,360 areas like homeopathy things like that 290 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:11,790 because the checkout does and all those 291 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:13,410 sort of you have item and products and 292 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:14,670 home do you actually look into those as 293 00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:17,520 well look we do and a lot of what we do 294 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:19,200 obviously is research base so we're 295 00:11:23,770 --> 00:11:21,270 looking at the size of markets and the 296 00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:23,780 level of consumer detriment to a problem 297 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:26,430 it's not to say that we we won't touch 298 00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:27,810 all sorts of things from time to time 299 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:29,790 but what we tend to do is focus on the 300 00:11:33,050 --> 00:11:31,710 big ones so obviously at the moment 301 00:11:35,890 --> 00:11:33,060 we're out there on private health 302 00:11:39,530 --> 00:11:35,900 insurance so we're in there looking at 303 00:11:41,810 --> 00:11:39,540 38,000 policies of the 48,000 on the 304 00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:41,820 market because what we've seen is a rise 305 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:44,040 in what we term junk insurance policies 306 00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:45,930 where consumers are paying up to two 307 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:47,640 thousand dollars a year for this 308 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:50,130 hospital cover that then excludes them 309 00:11:55,370 --> 00:11:53,610 from nearly 5,000 treatments it's pretty 310 00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:55,380 hopeless i mean really it's just a 311 00:11:59,630 --> 00:11:57,570 marketing tool for the funds to keep you 312 00:12:02,120 --> 00:11:59,640 in their network and help you avoid a 313 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:02,130 bit of taxes and surcharges on the way 314 00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:03,750 through we actually did an investigation 315 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:05,640 of some time ago into health funds and 316 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:07,690 the sort of things they do support 317 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:09,340 which is a lot of the very man 318 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:10,750 pseudo-scientific areas I mean they're 319 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:12,070 people supporting iridology and 320 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:14,490 homeopathy and Osteopathy not and 321 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:16,750 chiropractic and naturopathy all sorts 322 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:18,730 of areas and of course the health funds 323 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:21,460 are subsidized by the government right 324 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:22,750 and so therefore we our concern was that 325 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:24,580 his government tax payers money going 326 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:27,130 towards supporting health and payouts 327 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:29,410 for things would just don't work yeah 328 00:12:32,580 --> 00:12:30,670 look I think it's a really interesting 329 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:32,590 point and what not a lot of people 330 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:33,970 realize that health insurance is 331 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:35,350 actually two things it's hospital cover 332 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:37,030 and it's good to have that and you want 333 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:38,980 top level cover policy with in excess or 334 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:41,200 a co-payment unfortunately people are 335 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:42,790 being downgraded into junk policies 336 00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:44,530 there but the types of things you've 337 00:12:48,450 --> 00:12:46,270 been talking about ten to falling extras 338 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:48,460 cover and what we find is extras cover 339 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:50,770 is generally pretty shocking value and 340 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:52,960 the average payout rates are around 341 00:12:56,010 --> 00:12:54,490 three hundred and seventy dollars a year 342 00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,020 but people are paying a great deal more 343 00:13:00,900 --> 00:12:59,440 than that in premiums and I just think 344 00:13:02,430 --> 00:13:00,910 that you need to get yourself an annual 345 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:02,440 claim statement if you're paying that 346 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:04,300 type of insurance find out whether or 347 00:13:07,230 --> 00:13:06,250 not you're actually getting more benefit 348 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:07,240 than you're paying out in premium 349 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:08,470 because if you're not pretty simple 350 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:11,170 equation just get rid of it and save a 351 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:12,910 bit of money for the dentist do you have 352 00:13:15,660 --> 00:13:14,350 to actually ask for an annual claims 353 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:15,670 statement does it automatically get sent 354 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:17,770 out to you yeah like the when you do it 355 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:20,170 the the rep on the phone is horrified 356 00:13:25,890 --> 00:13:23,620 they they didn't think many people 357 00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:25,900 realize that these things exist but they 358 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:28,600 do and you know I I got mine the other 359 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:30,070 day and it was a pretty simple equation 360 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:32,050 I hadn't made any claims and I'd spend a 361 00:13:37,260 --> 00:13:34,840 small fortune so look happily get get 362 00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:37,270 rid of it and unlike hospital insurance 363 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:38,860 you can drop your extras cover without 364 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:42,070 any tax penalties so you know you won't 365 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:43,540 be feeling better if you keep paying 366 00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:45,850 those big bills okay as my dad's always 367 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:47,440 reminded me a lot of the funds actually 368 00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:49,210 have a funeral payout but because the 369 00:13:52,590 --> 00:13:50,800 person who's been taking it out passes 370 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:52,600 away the relatives don't know that so it 371 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:54,130 never gets claimed sometimes that that 372 00:13:57,870 --> 00:13:55,690 is what can happen here as well I mean 373 00:13:59,490 --> 00:13:57,880 it there's lots of very strange 374 00:14:01,230 --> 00:13:59,500 insurance products and I think your 375 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:01,240 funeral insurance is one of them every 376 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:03,520 time we look at it it's pretty appalling 377 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:06,610 value and you know the bass lesson with 378 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:08,350 a lot of these insurance program you see 379 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:11,170 with pet insurance as well is that you'd 380 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:13,450 be far better off just putting a little 381 00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:15,010 bit of money aside and covering the 382 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:17,020 costs yourselves avoid all the nonsense 383 00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:18,490 that the companies are telling you 384 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:19,470 because ultimately there 385 00:14:22,940 --> 00:14:21,960 exists there to make a lot of money it 386 00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:22,950 was like the way that the people 387 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:24,630 promoting funeral insurance are so happy 388 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:28,290 look for your guy I'm 65 I'm really 389 00:14:32,990 --> 00:14:30,690 looking forward to dying and my kids are 390 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:33,000 not going to pay for it what on those 391 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:34,530 areas I mean you obviously deal with a 392 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:36,570 lot of other sort of regulators etc the 393 00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:38,700 a triple see people like that how 394 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:41,430 effective are they look they can be very 395 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:43,710 effective and what we've seen recently 396 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:45,720 is some increase funding to the agency 397 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:48,180 which is really good and I think really 398 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:50,070 that's what is required and whether we 399 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:51,630 look at the age will see our asset they 400 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:54,330 need resources and sadly at the moment 401 00:14:59,210 --> 00:14:57,330 acik when it's taking on some of the 402 00:15:00,770 --> 00:14:59,220 biggest and most profitable financial 403 00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:00,780 institutions in the world seems a little 404 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:03,240 bit under guns so we certainly would 405 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:06,180 support greater funding for the hplc and 406 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:09,150 acic to take on you know what has been a 407 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:12,150 shocking display recently in the 408 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:14,610 financial sector whether it's you know 409 00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:15,810 the the biggest banks in the country 410 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:18,180 trying to lobby to remove consumer 411 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:21,030 protections yeah and then you the same 412 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:22,650 hand they're presiding over some of the 413 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:24,570 worst financial planning disasters going 414 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:26,370 around I just think you know the 415 00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:28,260 regulator's need to be strong and well 416 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:30,300 funded so that these businesses are 417 00:15:33,710 --> 00:15:32,250 called to account does that mean I'm in 418 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:33,720 the a Triple C recent you took a case 419 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:35,910 against homeopathy Plus which is hardly 420 00:15:40,070 --> 00:15:38,310 at the big end of town right and they 421 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,080 won because homeopathy plus was claiming 422 00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:42,720 that homeopathic vaccinations were there 423 00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:44,700 for whooping cough yeah we would sort of 424 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:46,200 better than anything else yeah I know I 425 00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:48,090 know it's a worry but I mean there was 426 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:49,470 it was out radio statements they asked 427 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:51,090 them to take the statements down off 428 00:15:55,340 --> 00:15:52,890 their website they didn't they forwarded 429 00:15:57,770 --> 00:15:55,350 they lost honey opti plus lost and the 430 00:15:59,390 --> 00:15:57,780 plants were from a homeopathy plus point 431 00:16:00,680 --> 00:15:59,400 of view would have been crippling but 432 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:00,690 from an a Triple C point of view whether 433 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:03,000 you were recouping your costs I mean 434 00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:06,150 that's obviously done as a ethical issue 435 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:08,070 almost by the a traditional market as 436 00:16:10,980 --> 00:16:08,480 well 437 00:16:13,449 --> 00:16:10,990 and i think that's it i'm the a triple c 438 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:13,459 does a great job and obviously they've 439 00:16:18,579 --> 00:16:16,310 got a very big remit and cases like that 440 00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:18,589 i think send a really clear message to 441 00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:20,510 others who might not directly be in that 442 00:16:24,879 --> 00:16:23,120 space but are pushing boundaries that 443 00:16:27,069 --> 00:16:24,889 there are some big fines and they will 444 00:16:28,990 --> 00:16:27,079 get cramps that's an interesting case 445 00:16:31,210 --> 00:16:29,000 because with the homeopathy plus people 446 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:31,220 they are they were dealing with true 447 00:16:35,259 --> 00:16:33,470 believers these people who really in 448 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:35,269 their heart of hearts believe this stuff 449 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:37,730 actually works whereas maybe we can look 450 00:16:40,509 --> 00:16:39,290 at some of the other dodgy products that 451 00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:40,519 have come and gotten of the power 452 00:16:44,769 --> 00:16:42,529 balance bands for example with the 453 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:44,779 people behind it knew full well it was a 454 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:46,310 dodgy product from the beginning so it's 455 00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:47,930 interesting you get to do a two 456 00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:50,630 different well that yeah that's right 457 00:16:54,759 --> 00:16:52,190 and I think that's why choice will 458 00:16:57,730 --> 00:16:54,769 always exist because whether or not 459 00:16:59,470 --> 00:16:57,740 people doing it with the pure intent to 460 00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:59,480 deceive you or they're just doing it 461 00:17:03,250 --> 00:17:01,279 unknowingly there is always a role for 462 00:17:05,919 --> 00:17:03,260 someone to keep them honest on that role 463 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:05,929 is it a lonely wrong choice there many 464 00:17:09,850 --> 00:17:07,730 other people to check out does that 465 00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:09,860 these days on the ABC right but there's 466 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:11,240 not a lot of others out there doing and 467 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:12,650 then quite a few promoters of the other 468 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:15,410 side yeah I've got a saying in in the 469 00:17:19,929 --> 00:17:17,990 legal profession is it's not a very sexy 470 00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,939 area to be in consumer law on the 471 00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:21,679 consumer side if there's not a lot of 472 00:17:25,449 --> 00:17:22,880 money in it and there's not a lot of 473 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:25,459 glamour in it either really yeah on the 474 00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:30,410 TV that's it that it's it's really 475 00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:32,720 interesting because now that obviously 476 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:35,510 social media has taken off we're getting 477 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:36,830 a lot of people wanting to get engaged 478 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:39,110 and what's fascinating about that is 479 00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:40,850 that you get support from really 480 00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,980 interesting places in the community and 481 00:17:46,750 --> 00:17:44,720 you can see it live and people arguing 482 00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:46,760 your case for you so if you get the 483 00:17:50,409 --> 00:17:48,470 message right and then you empower the 484 00:17:53,470 --> 00:17:50,419 community they often will take that 485 00:17:55,030 --> 00:17:53,480 consumer affairs message for you into 486 00:17:56,740 --> 00:17:55,040 the market and what's been really 487 00:17:59,230 --> 00:17:56,750 interesting recently where we launched a 488 00:18:01,659 --> 00:17:59,240 free-range egg boycott against 19 brands 489 00:18:04,930 --> 00:18:01,669 that we believe we're just ridiculous 490 00:18:06,909 --> 00:18:04,940 with their free-range claims people 491 00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:06,919 embraced it we're getting 10,000 scans 492 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:09,980 on egg cartons every day basically 493 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:12,530 showing people how they're being misled 494 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:14,809 and deceived with these claims and it's 495 00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:17,090 just being embraced by the community and 496 00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:17,680 shared 497 00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:19,720 so if you get it right it can go viral 498 00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:21,220 like that and you can have a huge impact 499 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:25,750 like long and far beyond these doors all 500 00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:27,430 right well then Tom thank you so much 501 00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:29,080 it's always good to come by to choice 502 00:18:32,420 --> 00:18:30,670 magazine Western skeptics and choice 503 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:32,430 magazine have had a long and happy 504 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:34,750 relationship we do cross over quite a 505 00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:37,300 bit and of course I very well remember 506 00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:39,700 well not helping choice because that's 507 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:41,140 not exactly how it works but letting 508 00:18:44,130 --> 00:18:42,910 them know more about the power balance 509 00:18:46,770 --> 00:18:44,140 band and I was delighted when that 510 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:46,780 received the shonky some years ago and I 511 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:49,150 will offer you an open invitation to 512 00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:51,070 come and talk to our group at skeptics 513 00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:53,350 in the pub which is the first thursday 514 00:18:56,820 --> 00:18:55,060 of the month Alex tonight as a matter of 515 00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:56,830 fact but we have a Sega tonight but 516 00:18:59,880 --> 00:18:58,720 you're always welcome in the coming 517 00:19:02,790 --> 00:18:59,890 months if you want to come along and ask 518 00:19:05,970 --> 00:19:02,800 for address our group it's quite a fun 519 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:05,980 evening and if people want to find out 520 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:07,690 more about choice magazine or even 521 00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:10,030 subscribe how do they go that well jump 522 00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:13,060 to choice comdata you and it's all there 523 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:14,800 and I would encourage everyone if you've 524 00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:17,290 got a tip let us know it's information 525 00:19:21,390 --> 00:19:19,000 about the trans-pacific trade agreement 526 00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:21,400 cuz that's really confusing is a simple 527 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:23,080 place that on your site we can read 528 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:25,270 about yeah there is so again just got a 529 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:27,070 choice to accommodate you type in TPP 530 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:29,110 and there's an explainer there there's 531 00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:30,970 also a campaign action you can take to 532 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:31,990 help us keep the pressure on the 533 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:34,930 government to get out of this dodgy isds 534 00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:55,830 you 535 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:00,100 secrets of the psychics Australian 536 00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:02,960 skeptics Sydney dinner meeting fourth of 537 00:20:09,220 --> 00:20:05,840 June at the ride Eastwood leagues club 538 00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:09,230 in west ryde in preparation for the 539 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:13,400 visit by psychic medium John Edward to 540 00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:15,050 Australia we're thrilled to have a 541 00:20:19,810 --> 00:20:16,790 special event for our next dinner 542 00:20:22,419 --> 00:20:19,820 meeting in Sydney and double act with a 543 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:22,429 demonstration of psychic powers by self 544 00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:26,090 professed psychic Nellie Klein and an 545 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:27,830 explanation of the psychic skills by 546 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:30,410 Richard Saunders judge of the psychic TV 547 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:33,350 challenge show the one and senior 548 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:35,500 investigator for Australian skeptics Inc 549 00:20:41,110 --> 00:20:38,570 miss Klein has agreed to do readings of 550 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,120 members of our audience giving you the 551 00:20:45,790 --> 00:20:43,760 chance to see the psychic powers in 552 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:45,800 action and see how accurate they are 553 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:47,690 Richard will follow this with the 554 00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:49,970 presentation of psychic tricks of the 555 00:20:55,690 --> 00:20:52,670 trade using his extensive knowledge and 556 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:55,700 confrontation with claimants who it 557 00:20:59,290 --> 00:20:57,050 sounds interesting i might even go to 558 00:21:00,970 --> 00:20:59,300 this one myself so that's the australian 559 00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:00,980 skeptics in dinner meeting the fourth of 560 00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:03,830 june at the ride eastwood leagues club 561 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:09,350 in west ryde are 6 34 7 15 it says cost 562 00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:10,850 is fifty dollars per person which 563 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:12,830 includes a buffet dinner and the dinners 564 00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:15,860 there are pretty damn good plus a lucky 565 00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:17,870 door prize somebody will get their 566 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:20,240 ticket refunded for more information 567 00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:34,590 how much truth is there to claims of 568 00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:36,550 risk caused by the treatment of beef 569 00:21:40,770 --> 00:21:38,920 cattle with antibiotics I'm Tamra 570 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:40,780 Robertson and you're hooked up to the 571 00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,690 feeding tube the feeding tube is the web 572 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:48,880 video series that brings you the real 573 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:51,970 facts behind popular food myths food 574 00:21:56,790 --> 00:21:54,430 whoo is the most pervasive pop 575 00:21:59,280 --> 00:21:56,800 pseudoscience out there right now and it 576 00:22:01,290 --> 00:21:59,290 desperately needs debunking each three 577 00:22:04,050 --> 00:22:01,300 minute episode is suitable for general 578 00:22:07,170 --> 00:22:04,060 audience and is produced by scientists 579 00:22:27,660 --> 00:22:07,180 for everyone the feeding tube check it 580 00:22:29,790 --> 00:22:27,670 out feeding tube TV the skeptic zone 581 00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:29,800 continues to bring you updates on the 582 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:33,280 Melbourne chiropractor in ross perot who 583 00:22:38,850 --> 00:22:35,590 crafted the back of a four day old baby 584 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:38,860 his reasoning was to relieve the baby of 585 00:22:43,650 --> 00:22:41,290 colic I'm going to take that contact 586 00:22:46,110 --> 00:22:43,660 there like that I have to unfortunately 587 00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:46,120 just extend her a little bit to get it 588 00:22:58,140 --> 00:22:55,600 in the right place that's why there is 589 00:23:00,830 --> 00:22:58,150 an excellent overview of this whole 590 00:23:04,110 --> 00:23:00,840 affair over its science-based medicine 591 00:23:05,730 --> 00:23:04,120 science-based medicine org I'll add a 592 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:05,740 link to the show notes if you go to 593 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:07,780 science-based medicine you'll find the 594 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:11,050 article they're entitled the crack heard 595 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:16,210 around the world by clay Jones Ross bruh 596 00:23:21,690 --> 00:23:18,870 himself appeared on the national TV show 597 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:21,700 studio 10 earlier last week to defend 598 00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:25,210 the video his actions in chiropractic it 599 00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:26,860 didn't go very well for him at all and 600 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:29,860 I'll add that video to the show notes as 601 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:32,710 well but to quote a segment of the 602 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:36,610 report at science-based medicine what 603 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:39,130 really happened in the ross perot video 604 00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:41,290 the funny thing is the child in the 605 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:44,110 video doesn't have acid reflux or 606 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:46,450 neither of those are conditions we 607 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:49,360 diagnose in a four day old infant the 608 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:51,250 kid was hungry what the parents 609 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:53,350 described and taking into account the 610 00:23:58,620 --> 00:23:55,809 mild prematurity of the infant is 611 00:24:01,530 --> 00:23:58,630 consistent with a hungry cluster feeding 612 00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:01,540 baby whose mothers milk hasn't come in 613 00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:04,390 yet the reason the child was less fussy 614 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:06,880 one week later was because by that time 615 00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:11,290 it had she didn't need chiropractic she 616 00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:13,929 needed a weight check and an evaluation 617 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:16,960 of her obvious jaundice her parents 618 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:19,090 needed reassurance and breastfeeding 619 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:22,960 support they all just needed a good 620 00:24:31,370 --> 00:24:27,640 primary care doctor from the website of 621 00:24:34,830 --> 00:24:31,380 Australian skeptics skeptics comdata you 622 00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:34,840 Vic health minister calls for action on 623 00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:38,049 kiro regulation by Tim mendham published 624 00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:41,200 on the 6th of May following a public 625 00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:43,390 outcry the Victorian Health Minister 626 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:45,640 Jill Hennessy has raised serious 627 00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:47,710 concerns about the practices and 628 00:24:52,919 --> 00:24:50,380 regulation in the chiropractic industry 629 00:24:55,620 --> 00:24:52,929 calling for urgent action on these 630 00:24:57,659 --> 00:24:55,630 issues she is the second health minister 631 00:24:59,820 --> 00:24:57,669 to raise concerns about the chiropractic 632 00:25:01,799 --> 00:24:59,830 industry following the South Australian 633 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,809 health minister Jack snowing he wrote to 634 00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:03,520 the Australian health practitioners 635 00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:07,600 regulation agency eh pra and the 636 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:10,240 chiropractic board of Australia CBA in 637 00:25:15,270 --> 00:25:12,610 February demanding to know what they are 638 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:15,280 doing about chiropractors involved in 639 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:17,610 quote potentially false or misleading 640 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:20,650 advertising men quote snelling is the 641 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:23,080 chair of the co AG Health Council whose 642 00:25:27,539 --> 00:25:25,210 members comprise all australian 643 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:27,549 government ministers state and territory 644 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:29,770 ministers and ministers from the new 645 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:31,570 zealand government with direct 646 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:33,730 responsibility for health matters which 647 00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:36,370 includes Hennessey Hennessey has not 648 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:38,020 issued a formal statement on the issue 649 00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:41,110 but in interviews with the media she 650 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:43,000 says she has called for urgent action 651 00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:45,850 against rogue chiropractors amid outrage 652 00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:48,760 over the manipulation of babies spines 653 00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:51,580 this follows the wide distribution of a 654 00:25:57,180 --> 00:25:54,640 YouTube clip of chiropractor Ian Ross 655 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:57,190 pura cracking the back of a Ford a year 656 00:26:00,220 --> 00:25:57,770 old primit 657 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:00,230 your baby Roz pura has recently posted 658 00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:02,570 another video of himself adjusting the 659 00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:05,600 neck of his own baby local skeptics and 660 00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:07,550 concerned members of the community have 661 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:09,440 raised the issue with the Victorian 662 00:26:13,660 --> 00:26:11,330 Human Services Minister and the 663 00:26:16,030 --> 00:26:13,670 Department of Health there has also been 664 00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:16,040 much space on mainstream and social 665 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:18,620 media devoted to the clip and its wider 666 00:26:23,070 --> 00:26:20,890 implications for chiropractic practice 667 00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:23,080 Hennessy said that she was quote 668 00:26:28,090 --> 00:26:26,060 physically shaken and quote after 669 00:26:31,870 --> 00:26:28,100 viewing the initial video like snelling 670 00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:31,880 she has written to the ahpra and the cba 671 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:33,980 seeking action on chiropractors 672 00:26:38,650 --> 00:26:36,110 performing quote unproven and 673 00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:38,660 potentially unsafe procedures on young 674 00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:41,150 children and infants men quote in 675 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:43,070 particular she was concerned about the 676 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:45,650 persistent claims from a quote small 677 00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:48,260 cohort of chiropractors and quote that 678 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:50,660 spinal or scalp treatment could cure 679 00:26:57,010 --> 00:26:53,210 conditions such as colic autism ear 680 00:27:00,820 --> 00:26:57,020 infections and ADHD she said that in her 681 00:27:02,740 --> 00:27:00,830 letter to the ahpra and the cba she 682 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:02,750 raised doubts that the current 683 00:27:06,130 --> 00:27:04,700 regulations were preventing rogue 684 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:06,140 chiropractors from making 685 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:08,690 unsubstantiated and dangerous claims and 686 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:10,970 asked the board to review its 687 00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:13,760 accountability mechanisms in March the 688 00:27:18,370 --> 00:27:16,160 CBA the group responsible for 689 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:18,380 chiropractic industry standards issued 690 00:27:23,530 --> 00:27:20,690 its own warning to chiropractors that 691 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:23,540 quote claims suggesting that manual 692 00:27:28,210 --> 00:27:25,730 therapy for spinal problems can assist 693 00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:28,220 with general wellness and or benefit a 694 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:30,080 variety of pediatric symptoms and 695 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:32,690 organic conditions are not supported by 696 00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:34,670 satisfactory evidence this includes 697 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:36,680 claims relating to development and 698 00:27:42,790 --> 00:27:39,140 behavioral disorders ADHD autism 699 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:42,800 spectrum disorders asthma infantile 700 00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:45,610 colic bedwetting ear infections and 701 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:48,440 digestive problems unquote the baby in 702 00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:50,690 rosboroughs initial video was being 703 00:27:55,690 --> 00:27:52,910 treated for colic the Royal Australian 704 00:27:57,850 --> 00:27:55,700 College of General Practitioners has 705 00:28:00,220 --> 00:27:57,860 told its members not to refer patients 706 00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:00,230 to chiropractors and has called for the 707 00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:01,760 federal government and private health 708 00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:04,160 insurers to stop paying them for 709 00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:06,230 questionable treatments hennessy was 710 00:28:10,930 --> 00:28:08,030 also concerned about the reports from 711 00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:10,940 quote alarmed and quote members of the 712 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:12,470 who said they had witnessed 713 00:28:17,170 --> 00:28:14,930 chiropractors advising parents against 714 00:28:19,870 --> 00:28:17,180 vaccinating their children and openly 715 00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:19,880 promoting anti-vaccination materials in 716 00:28:25,060 --> 00:28:23,240 waiting rooms quote it's reprehensible 717 00:28:27,670 --> 00:28:25,070 but chiropractors would pedal 718 00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:27,680 anti-vaccination myths outside their 719 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:29,840 scope of practice when quote she told 720 00:28:34,810 --> 00:28:33,050 the media CAA interview following the 721 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:34,820 publication of Minister Hennessy's 722 00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:37,970 comments ABC morning radio presented Jon 723 00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:40,790 Faine interviewed andrew lawrence deputy 724 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:42,200 president of the chiropractic 725 00:28:47,770 --> 00:28:45,230 association of australia in what can 726 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:47,780 only be described as an extremely 727 00:28:51,670 --> 00:28:49,210 hesitant response to feigns 728 00:28:53,670 --> 00:28:51,680 uncompromising questioning lawrence 729 00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:53,680 repeatedly refused to condemn 730 00:28:59,290 --> 00:28:55,910 chiropractic treatment of infants and 731 00:29:01,120 --> 00:28:59,300 that comes to us from skeptics com au 732 00:29:03,850 --> 00:29:01,130 the website of Australian skeptics 733 00:29:06,550 --> 00:29:03,860 written by Tim mendham published on the 734 00:29:09,340 --> 00:29:06,560 6th of May an hour play a short clip 735 00:29:12,010 --> 00:29:09,350 from the aforementioned segment with 736 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:12,020 radio presenter ABC radio presenter Jon 737 00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:15,170 Faine interviewing andrew lawrence the 738 00:29:20,770 --> 00:29:17,360 deputy president of the chiropractic 739 00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:20,780 association of australia 774 ABC 740 00:29:30,970 --> 00:29:28,880 melbourne on radio online jon faine good 741 00:29:34,060 --> 00:29:30,980 morning friday morning the sixth of may 742 00:29:37,150 --> 00:29:34,070 the state government clamped down on 743 00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:37,160 extravagant even misleading claims made 744 00:29:44,770 --> 00:29:41,300 by chiropractors and one viral online 745 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:44,780 video of a chiropractor cracking the 746 00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:50,690 spine of a four day old baby four days 747 00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:55,760 old is triggering an enormous outpouring 748 00:30:00,280 --> 00:29:57,200 of criticism of the practice of 749 00:30:01,630 --> 00:30:00,290 chiropractors to dr. andrew lawrence is 750 00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:01,640 deputy present of the chiropractor's 751 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:03,740 association morning to you Andrew good 752 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:05,570 morning John a chiropractors out of 753 00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:09,530 control no not at all what about mr. 754 00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:11,990 Ross Perot manipulating and cracking the 755 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:14,990 spine of a four day old baby look I've 756 00:30:19,810 --> 00:30:17,690 seen the video but obviously I wasn't 757 00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:19,820 there so it's a bit difficult for me to 758 00:30:24,649 --> 00:30:22,720 contact specific comment specifically 759 00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:24,659 about it would you under any 760 00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:27,460 circumstances do that on a four day old 761 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:34,960 baby the adjustment of children is so by 762 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:36,970 chiropractors has been done safely for a 763 00:30:44,909 --> 00:30:40,000 very long period of time four days old 764 00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:44,919 do you defend it I ever said I can't 765 00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:46,900 comment because i have known to comment 766 00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:49,000 Andrew you're the deputy president of 767 00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:50,950 the Assessor ocean Oh either say it's 768 00:30:57,060 --> 00:30:54,070 okay or you say it's not well the care 769 00:30:58,890 --> 00:30:57,070 of children is has been a part of 770 00:31:00,720 --> 00:30:58,900 chiropractic for a very long period of 771 00:31:03,630 --> 00:31:00,730 time for dads attique look that 772 00:31:08,909 --> 00:31:03,640 particular video did not did not look 773 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:08,919 good and it's the type of adjustment 774 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:19,870 that occurred is well really we don't we 775 00:31:27,419 --> 00:31:22,450 don't why not just come out and say it's 776 00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:27,429 wrong well that type of adjustment on a 777 00:31:31,529 --> 00:31:29,710 four day old would not be recommended I 778 00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:31,539 wouldn't of thought had its worst Andrew 779 00:31:53,379 --> 00:31:33,820 I've got a snake that needs oiling can i 780 00:31:58,840 --> 00:31:56,899 hi this is Heidi Robertson from the 781 00:32:01,720 --> 00:31:58,850 Northern Rivers vaccination supporters 782 00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:01,730 we are a group of concerned citizens 783 00:32:06,919 --> 00:32:04,350 dedicated to promoting good science and 784 00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:06,929 common sense in our region the far north 785 00:32:11,779 --> 00:32:09,990 coast of New South Wales this area are 786 00:32:14,779 --> 00:32:11,789 famous for its natural beauty and 787 00:32:18,379 --> 00:32:14,789 relaxed lifestyle also has the lowest 788 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:18,389 rates of vaccination in Australia we are 789 00:32:22,909 --> 00:32:20,490 out to change that by challenging the 790 00:32:24,590 --> 00:32:22,919 myths and misinformation and by 791 00:32:27,889 --> 00:32:24,600 providing good evidence based 792 00:32:29,749 --> 00:32:27,899 information to the community we'd love 793 00:32:33,379 --> 00:32:29,759 for you no matter where you are in the 794 00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:33,389 world to join our fight please visit our 795 00:32:43,789 --> 00:32:40,980 webpage at ww nrvs info we also have a 796 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:43,799 link there to our facebook page tweet us 797 00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:47,850 at in our faqs supporters that's VA x 798 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:50,399 and check us out on Wikipedia by 799 00:33:04,310 --> 00:32:52,369 searching for Northern Rivers 800 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:04,320 vaccination supporters thank you years 801 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:07,910 may not spooky action 802 00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:14,210 yes I'm discreetly located near the 803 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:16,230 ladies toilet where I can keep an eye on 804 00:33:20,299 --> 00:33:18,450 everything scenically opposite the 805 00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:20,309 vaults look at that doesn't it look like 806 00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:21,720 there's a conspiracy of some sort going 807 00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:24,000 in there I ask our guests tonight at 808 00:33:29,630 --> 00:33:26,700 skeptics in the pub who is Chris Fleming 809 00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:29,640 and Chris have what degree of you got 810 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:31,020 and why are you giving us a lecture on 811 00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:32,730 conspiracy theories this evening oh I've 812 00:33:36,289 --> 00:33:34,260 got a couple of undergraduate degrees in 813 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:36,299 a PhD in philosophy why am I giving you 814 00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:38,220 why am i coming you talk about that I 815 00:33:42,169 --> 00:33:40,049 could you asked me any ones and you 816 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:42,179 asked very nicely actually right so it's 817 00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:45,210 ego basically narcissism and I yeah I 818 00:33:48,830 --> 00:33:46,470 think it's a great thing to talk about 819 00:33:52,430 --> 00:33:48,840 Google look I'm a huge fan of new shows 820 00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:52,440 up does that make me a weirdo well I 821 00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:54,360 mean you to do philosophers go into the 822 00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:56,460 nation no I've got it one of my PhD 823 00:34:01,900 --> 00:33:59,250 students doing a PhD on nature as we 824 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:01,910 speak i was reading his work today so 825 00:34:05,870 --> 00:34:04,290 unless this we're all weirdos which is 826 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:05,880 fine and that's what yeah exactly is it 827 00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:07,410 is there a philosopher who isn't a 828 00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:11,129 weirdo it's hard to say i spent a lot of 829 00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,720 time thinking a bit too hard about stuff 830 00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:14,700 for you really maybe shouldn't yeah i 831 00:34:19,970 --> 00:34:18,030 did a very are very often the the 832 00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:19,980 personalized of philosophers are not to 833 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:22,830 be emulated i guess how you going to 834 00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:25,050 broach the whole conspiracy topic to us 835 00:34:28,730 --> 00:34:26,550 and sometimes I find the whole idea 836 00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:28,740 conspiracy theory adding that word on 837 00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:30,419 the end of it a little bit insulting to 838 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:31,950 people that may be because there are 839 00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:34,320 genuine theories in in legal courts 840 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:35,700 every day in Australia yeah 841 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:37,770 unfortunately English is one of these 842 00:34:42,260 --> 00:34:39,570 things we can't control unlike the 843 00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:42,270 French who passed laws about what words 844 00:34:45,470 --> 00:34:44,070 you can use in what way English is one 845 00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:45,480 of these things that son ruling it's 846 00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:47,790 probably good that way restricting 847 00:34:53,540 --> 00:34:51,030 people's people from saying theory I 848 00:34:55,849 --> 00:34:53,550 mean maybe it is maybe it is but I mean 849 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:55,859 the the very i'll be talking about the 850 00:34:59,690 --> 00:34:57,330 language of what it means to call 851 00:35:01,370 --> 00:34:59,700 something a conspiracy theory as opposed 852 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:01,380 to a conspiracy because there's things 853 00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,710 to be noted there okay no I like the big 854 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:06,800 ones like the electric universe theory 855 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:08,730 hologram theory they're two of my 856 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:10,530 favorite ones because they just overturn 857 00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,530 everything down to really small ones to 858 00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:15,119 like you know where do the socks always 859 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:16,830 go stuff like that and what are your 860 00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:20,010 favorites now really intrigues you well 861 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:21,200 the way you know the 862 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:24,650 really got me I was in wrote a book I 863 00:35:28,060 --> 00:35:26,690 wrote a book a couple years ago and one 864 00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:28,070 of the things I did was watch all the 865 00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:29,839 documentaries and they're all passing by 866 00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:32,540 me without much impact unfortunately 867 00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:35,089 varick von Daniken man he is the cool 868 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:36,710 he's a cool guy basically these days 869 00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:38,390 he's got the bling and he's got the bit 870 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:41,180 of gravitas p.m. you know any well not 871 00:35:44,140 --> 00:35:42,770 for you he looks like he's in an old 872 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:44,150 metal band doesn't need something like 873 00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:47,690 that or yeah well maybe he is maybe 874 00:35:52,030 --> 00:35:49,940 still in a metal band but so at the end 875 00:35:56,650 --> 00:35:52,040 of this right towards the end there was 876 00:36:00,550 --> 00:35:56,660 one of the shows was on area 51 in so 877 00:36:02,109 --> 00:36:00,560 aliens and so on and I was totally taken 878 00:36:06,099 --> 00:36:02,119 i mean i didn't believe it in a way but 879 00:36:09,010 --> 00:36:06,109 the guys testimony was so astonishing 880 00:36:10,359 --> 00:36:09,020 that i felt myself believing him you 881 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:10,369 know but it's the same conceit that I 882 00:36:15,190 --> 00:36:12,770 get when I watch a you know a true crime 883 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:15,200 show I always have the conceit that I 884 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:16,910 know whether they're guilty or not you 885 00:36:20,530 --> 00:36:19,130 know that I can read human nature and I 886 00:36:22,930 --> 00:36:20,540 was just certain this guy was telling 887 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:22,940 the truth I mean he's not but it is 888 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:25,609 interesting right so it's and so I 889 00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:28,970 enjoyed that enormously to know what 890 00:36:33,339 --> 00:36:31,369 about the theory about area 51 in 891 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:33,349 because that that stuff was sort of 892 00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:34,910 thrown up as a cover story for what was 893 00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,200 actually really going on there like 894 00:36:40,540 --> 00:36:38,000 making the Blackbird and developing 895 00:36:41,980 --> 00:36:40,550 weapons and communication things that 896 00:36:43,180 --> 00:36:41,990 were actually stuff that had to be kept 897 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:43,190 secret because that was a government 898 00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:45,050 conspiracy of a military kind yeah 899 00:36:50,349 --> 00:36:47,780 absolutely i mean this is the this is 900 00:36:52,270 --> 00:36:50,359 close to what someone like Noam Chomsky 901 00:36:56,260 --> 00:36:52,280 says is that there are actual plans 902 00:36:59,079 --> 00:36:56,270 going on in secret behind closed doors 903 00:37:01,450 --> 00:36:59,089 with powerful men and that a lot of 904 00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:01,460 people waste their time looking at the 905 00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:03,440 kind of very super if they become a 906 00:37:07,660 --> 00:37:05,240 structural engineer overnight and decide 907 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:07,670 that September 11 didn't happen and it 908 00:37:12,790 --> 00:37:10,130 was a black flag attack by the US now 909 00:37:15,099 --> 00:37:12,800 it's a you know Chomsky's idea is that 910 00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:15,109 the people like bush or anyone the 911 00:37:18,490 --> 00:37:16,880 Republican Party would love people 912 00:37:19,780 --> 00:37:18,500 buying into this in a way as a 913 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:19,790 distraction I'm not sure whether he's 914 00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:22,250 right but I mean there there's something 915 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:24,619 to that I hadn't realized that there was 916 00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:27,290 quite a few ideas around the whole port 917 00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:29,119 and arthur shooting until in recent 918 00:37:32,220 --> 00:37:30,520 years now 919 00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:32,230 is that just something that's come up or 920 00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:33,460 was that been something that happened at 921 00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:35,350 the time when the gun buyback happened 922 00:37:39,060 --> 00:37:36,910 and they link the two together yeah 923 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:39,070 there was a small amount of conspiracy 924 00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:40,930 theorizing at the time but what we're 925 00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:44,710 seeing now is that I think there's 926 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:47,020 signal moment for conspiracy theories 927 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:48,970 really JFK and the Warren Commission 928 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:51,730 report and that took a couple years to 929 00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,210 really you know kind of take off in a 930 00:37:59,040 --> 00:37:57,040 way that it was in the Warren Report was 931 00:38:00,780 --> 00:37:59,050 its own Quran and the satanic verses in 932 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:00,790 one you know it was a document trying to 933 00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:02,650 prove something and also there were 934 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:04,720 holes in it well but now there was that 935 00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:06,850 early documentary on JFK was it Mark 936 00:38:10,650 --> 00:38:08,470 Lane who made the first one black and 937 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:10,660 white one that is an extraordinary film 938 00:38:15,570 --> 00:38:13,210 mm-hmm oh yeah absolutely but I mean 939 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:15,580 what's happening now is you watch major 940 00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:18,340 world events is what you could almost 941 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:22,320 call instant revisionism so as the news 942 00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:24,250 report is coming out of the account 943 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:26,560 there are already circulating the real 944 00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:28,450 account this is the most evident the 945 00:38:34,620 --> 00:38:31,260 last time I saw this happen was with the 946 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:34,630 Boston Marathon bombing within an hour I 947 00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:36,970 was getting news feeds about who was 948 00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:39,670 really behind it it's amazing that the 949 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:42,880 pace at which conspiracy theorizing is 950 00:38:47,370 --> 00:38:45,610 is now coming out of course a lot of 951 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:47,380 people immediately think false flags and 952 00:38:51,390 --> 00:38:49,570 yes false flag attacks have happened I'm 953 00:38:52,980 --> 00:38:51,400 in the Gulf of Tonkin incident strikes 954 00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:52,990 means maybe if not a false flag 955 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:54,640 something that was used to get into 956 00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:56,170 Vietnam or that maybe never even 957 00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,210 happened yeah yeah it looked at this is 958 00:39:04,110 --> 00:39:00,400 a thing in there's no one of the things 959 00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:04,120 that is frustrating about writing about 960 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:06,400 this areas we don't have any surefire 961 00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:09,010 algorithm to kind of sort lunacy from 962 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:11,860 from reason there's a sliding scale of 963 00:39:17,490 --> 00:39:14,290 plausibility now whether you know it 964 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:17,500 seems at least to me doubtful that we're 965 00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:20,130 being ruled by you know reptilian 966 00:39:25,170 --> 00:39:23,200 hybrids but you know whether that there 967 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:25,180 were some you know whether some other 968 00:39:29,790 --> 00:39:27,250 conspiracies of its smaller nature I 969 00:39:32,190 --> 00:39:29,800 don't want to name any but are actually 970 00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:32,200 the case I can't think of any off the 971 00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:35,160 top of my head then you know there are 972 00:39:38,850 --> 00:39:37,630 gradations of plausibility here and as 973 00:39:41,790 --> 00:39:38,860 you say they've been you know the 974 00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:41,800 Tuskegee syphilis experiment operation 975 00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:43,720 northcott which never actually happened 976 00:39:49,290 --> 00:39:46,420 it was a quiet north wind and a horn 977 00:39:50,609 --> 00:39:49,300 it's something up racial north winds 978 00:39:52,410 --> 00:39:50,619 where they were thinking of introducing 979 00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:52,420 was it a flu agent or something to see 980 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:54,040 how it would go although think I'm doing 981 00:39:57,570 --> 00:39:55,690 hijacking experiments and blaming the 982 00:39:59,970 --> 00:39:57,580 Cubans was that the one yes yes it was 983 00:40:02,280 --> 00:39:59,980 that was a that was the blaming cubes 984 00:40:04,020 --> 00:40:02,290 but we've only got um finally got 985 00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:04,030 written records of that play never did 986 00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:06,790 it but they've have some account of it 987 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:09,220 so what do you reckon is if someone like 988 00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:10,930 obviously there's a skeptic listing they 989 00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,550 don't want any truck with this sort of 990 00:40:16,980 --> 00:40:14,560 stuff probably but if they want to have 991 00:40:18,810 --> 00:40:16,990 a good time looking at a documentary 992 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:18,820 that is proposing something odd to me 993 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:21,250 ancient aliens is a good one because it 994 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:22,930 the production values are good it's easy 995 00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:24,430 to watch but is there one you would 996 00:40:28,290 --> 00:40:26,140 recommed of interesting starting point a 997 00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:28,300 documentary to watch about conspiracies 998 00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:31,140 well I mean a really significant one 999 00:40:36,660 --> 00:40:33,550 loose change is really interesting as a 1000 00:40:39,390 --> 00:40:36,670 as a kind of example of the genre and is 1001 00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:39,400 and also unlike other it kept updating 1002 00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:40,780 every six months or every year that 1003 00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:42,640 updated as well and that's a new thing 1004 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:46,440 now too oh absolutely so it's you know I 1005 00:40:51,420 --> 00:40:49,540 and it's it's very significant in terms 1006 00:40:53,940 --> 00:40:51,430 of modern conspiracy dissemination 1007 00:40:56,220 --> 00:40:53,950 through billing seven building seven man 1008 00:40:58,770 --> 00:40:56,230 yeah I know I don't want to talk about 1009 00:41:02,490 --> 00:40:58,780 it he actually have at least not out in 1010 00:41:03,870 --> 00:41:02,500 the open but yeah so okay d lose-lose 1011 00:41:06,510 --> 00:41:03,880 changes yet but you've you found that a 1012 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:06,520 bit dull well I mean dramatic times you 1013 00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:08,050 know if you really want to watch a good 1014 00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:09,520 conspiracy show watch any television 1015 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:12,160 right because that is the that is the 1016 00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:14,410 main mode in which television operates 1017 00:41:18,030 --> 00:41:16,540 you know if you are watching daredevil 1018 00:41:20,460 --> 00:41:18,040 last night right the whole thing is this 1019 00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:20,470 incredible conspiracy between building 1020 00:41:25,770 --> 00:41:23,470 contractors between slight sexual slave 1021 00:41:27,450 --> 00:41:25,780 traders between you know read that and 1022 00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:27,460 brown I mean you don't do if you really 1023 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:28,900 want the good conspiracies turn to 1024 00:41:32,970 --> 00:41:30,609 fiction because they're everywhere you 1025 00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:32,980 never have a TV on a television show 1026 00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:35,260 that talks about structural inequality 1027 00:41:39,870 --> 00:41:37,720 or broad social trends right because 1028 00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:39,880 they're not then they're not 1029 00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:41,920 intrinsically interesting to an audience 1030 00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:44,080 so that's where I'd turn I wouldn't 1031 00:41:48,510 --> 00:41:45,910 there's not enough in the Dockers how 1032 00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:48,520 about jf Oliver Stone's JFK that is that 1033 00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:50,710 that is a monumental piece of work yeah 1034 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:53,020 it is I find all of the stone difficult 1035 00:41:58,800 --> 00:41:55,930 I didn't forgive him to the doors 1036 00:42:00,930 --> 00:41:58,810 but oh and I find it kind of ponderous 1037 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:00,940 but yeah why not I mean he is he's 1038 00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:04,330 himself a conspiracy theorist about all 1039 00:42:09,390 --> 00:42:07,030 I think about most things but I think 1040 00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:09,400 even did the the revision history of the 1041 00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:11,020 United States it is a series as well 1042 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:12,880 documentary looking at it alternative 1043 00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:14,680 history of the United States there you 1044 00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:17,110 go I had no idea yeah well as well worth 1045 00:42:20,970 --> 00:42:18,910 ago and as a Hollywood filmmaker he'd be 1046 00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:20,980 in a very good position to do that and 1047 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:22,150 so what do you think you think you're 1048 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:23,170 getting at what sort of audience tonight 1049 00:42:25,530 --> 00:42:24,310 you're gonna get a lot of a lot of poo 1050 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:25,540 poo is here at the script is it got to 1051 00:42:28,740 --> 00:42:27,010 be poo pooing everything you're talking 1052 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:28,750 about so you won't have a lot of people 1053 00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:31,330 arguing with you but what do you reckon 1054 00:42:35,490 --> 00:42:32,440 they're gonna be like as an audience oh 1055 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:35,500 I just think that I've got no ID I don't 1056 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:37,930 know what I you know I've never given 1057 00:42:43,290 --> 00:42:40,090 I've didn't talk for the humanists I'm 1058 00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:43,300 given I mean I don't know what's the 1059 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:45,580 psychological profile of a skeptic I 1060 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:48,910 don't know is it is it yeah I'm not sure 1061 00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:52,090 I don't know about that and I always ask 1062 00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:54,820 this if there was one conspiracy theory 1063 00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:56,500 that you're pretty sure is incorrect 1064 00:43:00,660 --> 00:42:58,480 that you would like to be true is there 1065 00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:00,670 any conspiracy you think wow that would 1066 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:04,510 be good if that was one maybe Santa my 1067 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:06,730 god yeah ideally really if they really 1068 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:08,650 want something if there really was a fat 1069 00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:11,890 man around that conspired secretly to 1070 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:13,120 kind of come into your house every year 1071 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:14,850 and give you just what you wanted 1072 00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:18,850 contingent on you being naughty or nice 1073 00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:21,220 russet naughty then that would probably 1074 00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:23,680 be one of the best i think but i mean 1075 00:43:27,810 --> 00:43:26,260 i'd seriously i I don't know they're all 1076 00:43:30,330 --> 00:43:27,820 fun I wouldn't mind some of them being 1077 00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:30,340 true for an hour like the reptilian 1078 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:33,670 hybrid theory that we're governed and 1079 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:34,930 other aliens are governed there's a 1080 00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:37,450 hierarchy of aliens my favorite mid rank 1081 00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:40,990 is the intergalactic Sasquatch but the 1082 00:43:45,780 --> 00:43:43,540 that might be good until things start to 1083 00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:45,790 kind of blow up but dheela thanks for 1084 00:43:48,540 --> 00:43:46,960 joining us on the skeptics don't know if 1085 00:43:50,190 --> 00:43:48,550 we can find out where you are online or 1086 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:50,200 join in a conversation where can we find 1087 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:53,770 you it's dr. Chris Fleming calm cool 1088 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:55,210 okay well we'll see you there sometime 1089 00:43:59,580 --> 00:43:56,890 soon and enjoy your night tonight I hope 1090 00:44:00,900 --> 00:43:59,590 a fight doesn't break out well I depends 1091 00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:00,910 on the nature of the fight right I think 1092 00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:02,260 I think you appearing here tinnitus is 1093 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:04,590 one giant false flag event 1094 00:44:10,490 --> 00:44:06,450 thought I had I thought well yes I mean 1095 00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:10,500 no of course not I look look we're among 1096 00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:12,300 me like i like to call them the shadowy 1097 00:44:16,610 --> 00:44:14,460 elite and as you know we've got Jessica 1098 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:16,620 here how are you oh I'm hiding here in 1099 00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:18,930 the shadows and I'm plotting away what's 1100 00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:21,120 one of the conspiracies that you've 1101 00:44:24,020 --> 00:44:22,830 found very interesting the anomalies are 1102 00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:24,030 you think man that that's kind of out 1103 00:44:31,550 --> 00:44:27,630 there oh it's got to be the theory about 1104 00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:31,560 the Illuminati and the alien 1105 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:34,040 shape-shifting blood-drinking lizards I 1106 00:44:40,850 --> 00:44:37,890 like that one it's just so entertaining 1107 00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:40,860 and theatrical and it's it's great on 1108 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:42,900 every level touch of sci-fi it's got a 1109 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:45,090 touch of Game of Thrones yeah and nature 1110 00:44:50,090 --> 00:44:48,810 yeah okay well I got to say I mean when 1111 00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:50,100 you do look at the Queen you think 1112 00:44:56,510 --> 00:44:53,760 something's going on there oh yes yes oh 1113 00:44:58,700 --> 00:44:56,520 yes definitely look in the way she kind 1114 00:45:00,200 --> 00:44:58,710 of waves fact I reckon she's got a false 1115 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:00,210 hand that just waves and she's actually 1116 00:45:03,170 --> 00:45:01,650 they're playing with her iPad while 1117 00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:03,180 she's driving along and who can blame 1118 00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:07,110 her ball one yeah she must have she must 1119 00:45:12,140 --> 00:45:10,560 have stress fatigue of their hands look 1120 00:45:14,210 --> 00:45:12,150 it's always great to be at skeptics at 1121 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:14,220 the pub co sir dr. bread comes along and 1122 00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:15,810 you've obviously had a busy day in the 1123 00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:17,220 surgery and that it's great you still 1124 00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:18,720 want it you must be exhausted after 1125 00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:20,880 seeing lots and lots of people as a GP 1126 00:45:23,420 --> 00:45:22,230 that must be really exhausting because 1127 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:23,430 you never know what the person's going 1128 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:24,450 to have when they come through the door 1129 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:26,130 and now I'm pretty used to it by now 1130 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:28,440 though so every 15 minutes is a new 1131 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:30,450 story and a new person a new condition 1132 00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:32,490 so it's wiped off and now I'm here for 1133 00:45:35,570 --> 00:45:34,020 you how do you how do they 1134 00:45:37,070 --> 00:45:35,580 psychologically prepare you for that a 1135 00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:37,080 bit medical school because it's not 1136 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:38,790 something you know because you've got to 1137 00:45:41,660 --> 00:45:40,290 be intense with that person for 15 1138 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:41,670 minutes like they're the only person 1139 00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:43,050 you're seeing that day and then next 1140 00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:45,510 time I think you it's ground into you 1141 00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:47,760 over time so it's just repetition and 1142 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:49,980 yeah sometimes you need to take a bit of 1143 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:52,170 a breath between patients but usually 1144 00:45:55,250 --> 00:45:53,970 it's all right and another thing just 1145 00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:55,260 off topic you too when you are in 1146 00:45:58,450 --> 00:45:56,910 medical school how do they teach you to 1147 00:46:01,430 --> 00:45:58,460 be on the ball and make life-saving 1148 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:01,440 decisions over 12 or 13 hour shift that 1149 00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:03,210 you have sometimes haha how do you how 1150 00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:04,920 do you mentally get around that cuz that 1151 00:46:09,590 --> 00:46:06,780 that's very tough it's called a flat 1152 00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:09,600 white all right yeah so any any coffee 1153 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:11,160 just keeps you a focus for the whole day 1154 00:46:16,310 --> 00:46:14,490 yeah so as a medical student you had a 1155 00:46:18,020 --> 00:46:16,320 chance to sample all sorts 1156 00:46:20,180 --> 00:46:18,030 ranges of good and bad coffee haven't 1157 00:46:22,490 --> 00:46:20,190 you typically and usually the bad ones 1158 00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:22,500 are at hospital oh yeah yeah especially 1159 00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:23,940 from a machine if you're pressing a 1160 00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:25,920 button probably not going to be the best 1161 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:27,480 coffee and it for him that's often all 1162 00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:28,890 you can get yeah there was a beautiful 1163 00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:30,630 coffee at what are the hospitals where 1164 00:46:35,330 --> 00:46:33,600 it came out like an oil slick on top so 1165 00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:35,340 it was all shimmering with rainbow 1166 00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:37,230 colors which probably wasn't into me 1167 00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:39,390 there it's like drinking a liquid nodoz 1168 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:40,830 tablet or something especially when 1169 00:46:44,540 --> 00:46:42,810 you're doing night shift its yeah it's 1170 00:46:46,820 --> 00:46:44,550 not a hallucination it's actually there 1171 00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:46,830 Wow looking before it gets too late I 1172 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:48,120 want to ask you because we're talking 1173 00:46:51,350 --> 00:46:49,770 about conspiracies tonight is it have 1174 00:46:53,150 --> 00:46:51,360 you got a favorite conspiracy theory or 1175 00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:53,160 one that annoys you the one that one 1176 00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:55,110 that even intrigues the most yeah I 1177 00:46:59,660 --> 00:46:57,690 think what I love the most is when 1178 00:47:03,650 --> 00:46:59,670 people back up conspiracy theories with 1179 00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:03,660 conspiracy theories so yeah like if 1180 00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:04,980 people are coming into the clinic and 1181 00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:07,110 they're wanting to not vaccinate their 1182 00:47:11,450 --> 00:47:09,420 children and then they're trying to back 1183 00:47:13,790 --> 00:47:11,460 that up by saying that it's a conspiracy 1184 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:13,800 that the government's after them but 1185 00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,330 it's also from all of the reading that 1186 00:47:19,610 --> 00:47:17,040 they've been doing about homeopathy that 1187 00:47:21,350 --> 00:47:19,620 backs up their their knowledge about 1188 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:21,360 vaccinations it sort of like one thing 1189 00:47:24,620 --> 00:47:23,490 adds on to the next and I'm just 1190 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:24,630 expecting them to be talking about 1191 00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:26,490 chemtrails then influencing the people 1192 00:47:30,020 --> 00:47:27,870 that are making the vaccines it sort of 1193 00:47:31,610 --> 00:47:30,030 it all rolls into one it's very poetic 1194 00:47:33,110 --> 00:47:31,620 it's very difficult because you're at 1195 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:33,120 the coalface of the whole thing you've 1196 00:47:36,590 --> 00:47:34,890 got a limited time with this person how 1197 00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:36,600 do you get them to try and disengage 1198 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:38,070 from that and try and tell them the 1199 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:39,330 world there is some general medicine 1200 00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:41,370 that can help them often people are 1201 00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:42,720 coming in and they're they're very 1202 00:47:47,570 --> 00:47:45,270 convinced of their own argument and they 1203 00:47:49,130 --> 00:47:47,580 they may just not want to be giving 1204 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:49,140 their child a vaccination and somebody 1205 00:47:52,610 --> 00:47:50,610 will come in and they want you to sign 1206 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:52,620 an exemption form to say that their 1207 00:47:58,100 --> 00:47:54,930 children shouldn't be vaccinated and 1208 00:47:59,660 --> 00:47:58,110 yellow there's not much basis for what 1209 00:48:00,980 --> 00:47:59,670 they're trying to do but they're a lot 1210 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:00,990 of people will sort of try to get around 1211 00:48:04,580 --> 00:48:02,610 it so they'll they'll say that they have 1212 00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:04,590 religious reasons that they don't want 1213 00:48:08,570 --> 00:48:07,110 to to immunize their children but often 1214 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:08,580 if you're challenging them about their 1215 00:48:13,490 --> 00:48:10,770 religious reasons they just say oh well 1216 00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:13,500 I don't believe in vaccines which at the 1217 00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:15,480 moment in Australia that's not a good 1218 00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:17,190 enough excuse to not vaccinate your 1219 00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:19,200 children and subjecting your children to 1220 00:48:24,590 --> 00:48:22,350 potentially deadly viruses and bacteria 1221 00:48:26,579 --> 00:48:24,600 isn't quite on can I ask you have you 1222 00:48:28,019 --> 00:48:26,589 actually ever actually signed 14 1223 00:48:31,709 --> 00:48:28,029 of course you really had to because 1224 00:48:33,870 --> 00:48:31,719 they've been so unmovable no I refuse to 1225 00:48:36,450 --> 00:48:33,880 sign exemption forms I don't think that 1226 00:48:38,489 --> 00:48:36,460 that's applicable I think the vaccines 1227 00:48:41,009 --> 00:48:38,499 are very important for children to have 1228 00:48:43,259 --> 00:48:41,019 I think if you have a personal reason 1229 00:48:45,209 --> 00:48:43,269 then you still shouldn't be putting your 1230 00:48:47,479 --> 00:48:45,219 children at risk and in the government 1231 00:48:50,339 --> 00:48:47,489 and the medical profession still has a 1232 00:48:52,589 --> 00:48:50,349 obligation to protect children whether 1233 00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:52,599 their parents believe that or not and I 1234 00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:54,430 know that sounds contentious but yeah 1235 00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:56,559 it's all about the the best for the 1236 00:48:59,370 --> 00:48:57,729 whole community in the best for the 1237 00:49:01,079 --> 00:48:59,380 environment and when have you been in 1238 00:49:02,789 --> 00:49:01,089 your surgery and someone's come in and 1239 00:49:05,309 --> 00:49:02,799 maybe it's been related to vaccinations 1240 00:49:07,079 --> 00:49:05,319 or someone's given you a theory of the 1241 00:49:08,670 --> 00:49:07,089 world that has really set you back on 1242 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:08,680 the the bones of your posterior there 1243 00:49:12,359 --> 00:49:10,450 you go never heard that one before and 1244 00:49:14,999 --> 00:49:12,369 it's actually surprised you is it what's 1245 00:49:17,219 --> 00:49:15,009 been the one that's gone Wow I think 1246 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:17,229 working in HIV medicine I have some 1247 00:49:20,789 --> 00:49:19,210 people that refuse to be on medication 1248 00:49:23,009 --> 00:49:20,799 because they don't think that it applies 1249 00:49:24,569 --> 00:49:23,019 to them and they think that it's just 1250 00:49:25,979 --> 00:49:24,579 going to be poison that's put into their 1251 00:49:28,049 --> 00:49:25,989 body and often they haven't had any 1252 00:49:30,479 --> 00:49:28,059 problems yet because it takes about five 1253 00:49:33,299 --> 00:49:30,489 or so years to actually start to have a 1254 00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:33,309 weak immune system but yeah usually from 1255 00:49:39,359 --> 00:49:36,609 from plotting graphs actually and 1256 00:49:42,089 --> 00:49:39,369 showing how people's white cell count or 1257 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:42,099 cd4 count starts to drop over time you 1258 00:49:45,989 --> 00:49:43,930 can actually yeah like plot a graph and 1259 00:49:47,370 --> 00:49:45,999 show oh well in about six months you're 1260 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:47,380 probably going to start having problems 1261 00:49:51,569 --> 00:49:50,410 so yeah bye-bye sort of spelling it out 1262 00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:51,579 to people and explaining things 1263 00:49:56,430 --> 00:49:54,640 thoroughly and making sure that I'm 1264 00:49:58,680 --> 00:49:56,440 going through and addressing the issues 1265 00:50:00,329 --> 00:49:58,690 nobody can get things pretty pretty good 1266 00:50:02,370 --> 00:50:00,339 and people will start to agree so this 1267 00:50:04,019 --> 00:50:02,380 is almost like a classic conspiracy 1268 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:04,029 thing where it's a person's personal 1269 00:50:07,829 --> 00:50:05,650 experience and what they've seen around 1270 00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:07,839 them that creates the entire thing for 1271 00:50:10,289 --> 00:50:09,190 them they haven't seen the people like 1272 00:50:11,999 --> 00:50:10,299 you have that have been sicker in 1273 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:12,009 hospital and that's what's powering this 1274 00:50:16,859 --> 00:50:13,690 for them yeah i think it's it's 1275 00:50:18,690 --> 00:50:16,869 ignorance in some regard or just not not 1276 00:50:20,729 --> 00:50:18,700 having the same life experience and i 1277 00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:20,739 think that's where I come into play 1278 00:50:23,489 --> 00:50:22,029 being a doctor and having that 1279 00:50:27,180 --> 00:50:23,499 experience and seeing people that have 1280 00:50:29,279 --> 00:50:27,190 had significant problems yeah by trying 1281 00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:29,289 to put that across and try to explain it 1282 00:50:34,319 --> 00:50:32,079 it is vivid terms as possible can 1283 00:50:35,789 --> 00:50:34,329 sometimes get the message across try and 1284 00:50:37,339 --> 00:50:35,799 enjoy yourself and don't get too angry 1285 00:50:38,839 --> 00:50:37,349 during the conspiracy 1286 00:50:43,309 --> 00:50:38,849 tation okay I think I might need to 1287 00:50:44,930 --> 00:50:43,319 throw beer well and of course a he's 1288 00:50:46,789 --> 00:50:44,940 over there he's quietly eating his fish 1289 00:50:48,979 --> 00:50:46,799 but of course he's the guest at next 1290 00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,989 month's skeptics in the pub in Bryce how 1291 00:50:53,029 --> 00:50:50,880 are you and what is one of your favorite 1292 00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,039 or most intriguing almost interesting or 1293 00:50:56,509 --> 00:50:55,200 annoying conspiracy theories or 1294 00:50:58,009 --> 00:50:56,519 anomalies that you like to follow you 1295 00:50:59,690 --> 00:50:58,019 know I'm into the electric universe you 1296 00:51:01,279 --> 00:50:59,700 know one like the hologram theory you 1297 00:51:04,430 --> 00:51:01,289 know both of them referred all the work 1298 00:51:07,729 --> 00:51:04,440 of Einstein what have you got for me ok 1299 00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:07,739 hello may know that was a long 1300 00:51:17,509 --> 00:51:14,989 yeah well I had a revelation recently 1301 00:51:20,779 --> 00:51:17,519 many years ago when I was visiting byron 1302 00:51:22,249 --> 00:51:20,789 bay i visited the local airstrip there 1303 00:51:24,469 --> 00:51:22,259 but there's a lot of home-built aircraft 1304 00:51:26,450 --> 00:51:24,479 and their pilots spent the day with a 1305 00:51:28,999 --> 00:51:26,460 bunch of pilots looking at and flying 1306 00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:29,009 their various machines and they said I 1307 00:51:33,319 --> 00:51:31,470 are real electrical a real aeronautical 1308 00:51:35,029 --> 00:51:33,329 engineer can we ask you some questions I 1309 00:51:37,099 --> 00:51:35,039 asked a couple of things you know all 1310 00:51:39,859 --> 00:51:37,109 those airliners there are these pods 1311 00:51:43,069 --> 00:51:39,869 they have under the wings two or three 1312 00:51:44,809 --> 00:51:43,079 on each side what are they for so I told 1313 00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,819 them that are they how's the mechanism 1314 00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:46,319 to raise and lower the flaps when you 1315 00:51:52,370 --> 00:51:48,630 take off and land it may seem very 1316 00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:52,380 disappointed and it was only a few weeks 1317 00:51:58,219 --> 00:51:54,960 ago when I saw an article on chemtrails 1318 00:52:00,499 --> 00:51:58,229 I realized they were hoping that they 1319 00:52:02,180 --> 00:52:00,509 were secret tanks in which the chemicals 1320 00:52:06,650 --> 00:52:02,190 were carried for spraying into the 1321 00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:06,660 atmosphere no mr. aeronautical engineer 1322 00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:08,609 let's talk about the Pentagon and the 1323 00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,680 plane that hit the Pentagon on 911 I 1324 00:52:16,339 --> 00:52:13,200 believe that because of ground effect a 1325 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:16,349 plane that big can't fly that fast that 1326 00:52:19,759 --> 00:52:18,210 load of the ground is that true or what 1327 00:52:22,279 --> 00:52:19,769 have I got going on there in my head 1328 00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:22,289 well it didn't it didn't have to break 1329 00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:25,440 that rule for very long did it stop 1330 00:52:28,459 --> 00:52:27,089 flying indeed yeah because i'm just so 1331 00:52:30,289 --> 00:52:28,469 just wondering because people say ground 1332 00:52:31,999 --> 00:52:30,299 effect and someone like me goes oh ok 1333 00:52:33,559 --> 00:52:32,009 and they oh yes because planes even 1334 00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:33,569 military planes don't go that low that 1335 00:52:37,579 --> 00:52:35,609 fast because that doesn't happen is is 1336 00:52:40,219 --> 00:52:37,589 there anything in that can you give us 1337 00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:40,229 in a nutshell what I've been told well 1338 00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:42,089 ground effect is the idea that you can 1339 00:52:44,599 --> 00:52:43,529 get a little more lift when you're near 1340 00:52:46,020 --> 00:52:44,609 the ground and when you're in the air 1341 00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,030 which is very good for landing 1342 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:48,160 of cushions you the bumping that we all 1343 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:51,730 sit the ground but it doesn't stop you 1344 00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:54,130 reaching the ground or as all the planes 1345 00:52:58,680 --> 00:52:55,480 that ever took off it still be in the 1346 00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,690 air okay I do so now that doesn't negate 1347 00:53:02,010 --> 00:53:00,400 the idea I thought you're going to ask 1348 00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:02,020 for a moment about the vanishing plane 1349 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:04,630 because a lot of conspiracy sites so 1350 00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:06,250 that no trace of the plane was ever 1351 00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:07,630 found that that's the one that went down 1352 00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:09,310 in Pennsylvania and just lift that very 1353 00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:11,830 funny sort of brown smudge no it was 1354 00:53:15,690 --> 00:53:13,960 found another one hit the Pentagon the 1355 00:53:17,580 --> 00:53:15,700 websites say there was no trace of it 1356 00:53:19,410 --> 00:53:17,590 found yeah there was some engines and 1357 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:19,420 bits and pieces but a lot of it did sort 1358 00:53:22,890 --> 00:53:21,370 of get the aluminium got also where I 1359 00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:22,900 went through the building dinner well 1360 00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,190 the websites claimed there was nothing 1361 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:26,800 found of it that's my point I won't lots 1362 00:53:30,780 --> 00:53:29,050 of it was found in including part of the 1363 00:53:32,850 --> 00:53:30,790 fuselage they had the name of the 1364 00:53:35,580 --> 00:53:32,860 airline painted on it that's that's a 1365 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:35,590 pretty reasonable proof that it was in 1366 00:53:39,150 --> 00:53:37,570 fact that error playing then went 1367 00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:39,160 missing on that day and what are you 1368 00:53:43,170 --> 00:53:40,390 going to be discussing here at skeptics 1369 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:43,180 at the pub next month okay well next the 1370 00:53:48,270 --> 00:53:45,450 next talk here is on gravitational waves 1371 00:53:50,940 --> 00:53:48,280 that's they were you might remember they 1372 00:53:52,590 --> 00:53:50,950 were announced in February image amid 1373 00:53:54,090 --> 00:53:52,600 much fanfare big breakthrough in 1374 00:53:57,180 --> 00:53:54,100 astronomy is detecting gravitational 1375 00:54:00,600 --> 00:53:57,190 waves so I'm going to talk about what 1376 00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:00,610 they are and how they were discovered 1377 00:54:05,010 --> 00:54:02,800 which is too big detectors called like 1378 00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:05,020 Oh in the USA and that's what you will 1379 00:54:07,890 --> 00:54:06,400 explain you to us next month it's 1380 00:54:10,050 --> 00:54:07,900 skeptics at the pub and I'll be sitting 1381 00:54:12,270 --> 00:54:10,060 there seeing them one my mouth open like 1382 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:12,280 ren and stimpy going well but i'll be 1383 00:54:16,140 --> 00:54:14,010 trying very hard when I'm listening 1384 00:54:17,490 --> 00:54:16,150 fantastic I'm forward to finger there 1385 00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:17,500 may know and i'll see you there too 1386 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:18,730 that's next month it's kept it to the 1387 00:54:38,660 --> 00:54:35,540 the skeptic magazine the journal from 1388 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:38,670 Australian skeptics subscribe online to 1389 00:54:45,470 --> 00:54:40,890 the world's second oldest skeptical 1390 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:45,480 magazine visit w WC apt Comte you and 1391 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:48,810 click the publication's League you can 1392 00:54:55,700 --> 00:54:52,410 also find their over 30 years on back 1393 00:55:13,430 --> 00:54:55,710 issues free to download the skeptic 1394 00:55:18,270 --> 00:55:16,380 hey hey the show's over the show's over 1395 00:55:20,339 --> 00:55:18,280 it's all over time to go home everybody 1396 00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,349 come on come on you don't have to go 1397 00:55:24,420 --> 00:55:22,480 home but you can't stay here well I mean 1398 00:55:25,650 --> 00:55:24,430 we're still at skeptics in the pub you 1399 00:55:27,180 --> 00:55:25,660 know we're on our fourth bottle of 1400 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:27,190 whatever this red stuff is half eight or 1401 00:55:31,620 --> 00:55:29,530 more thank you did you enjoy the show 1402 00:55:34,319 --> 00:55:31,630 this week may not I did it was just like 1403 00:55:35,789 --> 00:55:34,329 a long cool Brandy Alexander while 1404 00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:35,799 floating around the pool with a 1405 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:37,599 supermodel who's not talking to you and 1406 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:39,130 I've had that experience and tonight was 1407 00:55:43,620 --> 00:55:42,250 exactly like that I see and I want to 1408 00:55:45,930 --> 00:55:43,630 say they give those people here at 1409 00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:45,940 skeptics in the pub who gave us the 1410 00:55:49,410 --> 00:55:47,680 answer to their conspiracy theory in 1411 00:55:50,940 --> 00:55:49,420 Bryce dr. Brad of course are very 1412 00:55:53,069 --> 00:55:50,950 helpful what did you think of their 1413 00:55:54,930 --> 00:55:53,079 particular answers look I thought they 1414 00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:54,940 were really on the money a few times I 1415 00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:56,559 thought dr. Brad was a bit harsh I 1416 00:56:00,690 --> 00:55:58,480 thought the language you used was far 1417 00:56:02,099 --> 00:56:00,700 too inflammatory but again he was one of 1418 00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:02,109 the people who brought the extra jug of 1419 00:56:05,069 --> 00:56:03,520 beer to throw and then came in handy 1420 00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:05,079 anyone in the end but the good thing 1421 00:56:08,490 --> 00:56:06,880 about dr. Brad if he says something 1422 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:08,500 inflammatory he's always got an ointment 1423 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:10,690 to fix it later that's true it'll say 1424 00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:12,130 something inflammatory and then I write 1425 00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:13,599 you a prescription for in deceit it's 1426 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:16,510 amazing it's amazing folks skeptics in 1427 00:56:19,620 --> 00:56:17,770 the pub here in Sydney is the first 1428 00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:19,630 thursday of the month every month it's a 1429 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:21,730 lot of fun we are we really enjoyed a 1430 00:56:25,650 --> 00:56:23,650 lot of people turn up and there's always 1431 00:56:27,269 --> 00:56:25,660 interesting talk so we hope we can see 1432 00:56:29,279 --> 00:56:27,279 you here one time and when is the next 1433 00:56:33,509 --> 00:56:29,289 one first thursday of the month so it 1434 00:56:38,709 --> 00:56:33,519 will be the first thursday in odd 1435 00:56:40,359 --> 00:56:38,719 to be speakers them in Bryce well what 1436 00:56:43,569 --> 00:56:40,369 are you be talking about in June I'll be 1437 00:56:45,579 --> 00:56:43,579 talking about gravitational waves oh we 1438 00:56:47,769 --> 00:56:45,589 all look now look I subscribe to the 1439 00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:47,779 electric universe theory so I think that 1440 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:49,190 it's all electrical attraction and 1441 00:56:53,890 --> 00:56:51,890 gravity doesn't exist haha but that's it 1442 00:56:55,449 --> 00:56:53,900 that's a nice theory to given that 2 1443 00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:55,459 protons attract each other with the 1444 00:56:59,289 --> 00:56:57,650 force 10 to the 40 times stronger than 1445 00:57:01,890 --> 00:56:59,299 gravity the electric charge is much 1446 00:57:05,859 --> 00:57:01,900 longer than gravity that's not a bad 1447 00:57:07,959 --> 00:57:05,869 hypothesis up front just new bag of it I 1448 00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,969 just needs to be tested here we go we'll 1449 00:57:11,199 --> 00:57:09,440 look up the google the electric universe 1450 00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:11,209 theory and see how far you get with that 1451 00:57:13,749 --> 00:57:12,380 people because it does have a lot of 1452 00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:13,759 physics in it that I didn't understand 1453 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:15,680 which I will chat to him about next week 1454 00:57:19,809 --> 00:57:18,410 next month sometime or other thank you 1455 00:57:20,709 --> 00:57:19,819 again for listening to the skeptics I'm 1456 00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,719 and thank you those people who 1457 00:57:25,359 --> 00:57:22,880 contribute via paypal most people 1458 00:57:27,130 --> 00:57:25,369 contribute 99 cents a week we and it all 1459 00:57:29,499 --> 00:57:27,140 helps it helps keep Maynard in that 1460 00:57:31,509 --> 00:57:29,509 fancy red drink hmm parfait term or 1461 00:57:34,180 --> 00:57:31,519 evoke Google at people it's purple 1462 00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:34,190 Google and people but for this week this 1463 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:37,400 is Richard Saunders and and may nod 1464 00:57:46,509 --> 00:57:40,130 thank you and peanut signing off from 1465 00:57:49,029 --> 00:57:46,519 Sydney Australia you've been listening 1466 00:57:52,569 --> 00:57:49,039 to the skeptic zone podcast visit our 1467 00:57:54,819 --> 00:57:52,579 website at wwc a petting zoo TV for 1468 00:57:59,229 --> 00:57:54,829 contacts an archive of all episodes 1469 00:58:01,359 --> 00:57:59,239 since 2008 and our online store please 1470 00:58:04,689 --> 00:58:01,369 support the skeptic zone by following us 1471 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:04,699 on twitter at skeptic zone liking us on 1472 00:58:10,029 --> 00:58:07,690 facebook and leaving a review on iTunes 1473 00:58:12,699 --> 00:58:10,039 you can also show your support by 1474 00:58:16,449 --> 00:58:12,709 subscribing via paypal for as little as 1475 00:58:18,489 --> 00:58:16,459 99 cents a week the skeptic zone is an 1476 00:58:20,559 --> 00:58:18,499 independent production the views and 1477 00:58:22,779 --> 00:58:20,569 opinions expressed on the skeptic zone 1478 00:58:25,660 --> 00:58:22,789 and not necessarily those of Australian